Ok, here’s a video showing Obama saying what I’ve been saying that he’s been saying all along. If these aren’t the words of a Socialist then I don’t know what Socialism means.
I’m waiting for Daryl to factcheck this one. 😉
Thursday October 16, 2008
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Of course that’s what he’s saying. That’s what a progressive tax system means. I don’t remember ever disputing that.
Comment by Daryl — Thursday October 16, 2008 @ 9:23 pm
Last time I checked this country was a Capitalist country. I can see it won’t be for long.
Comment by Don — Friday October 17, 2008 @ 5:12 am
The last time you checked must have been a long time ago. A progressive income tax has been in place since 1913, when the top rate was 7 times the lowest rate. (1% vs 7%).
In 1944-45 the top rate was 94%, vs 23% for the lowest. In 2000 the rates were 39.6% and 15%. Right now they are 35% and 10%.
So it’s not that we are slipping into socialism, at least not based on income tax rates. It’s more like a pendulum that has recently swung towards flatter taxes, and in the future may swing somewhat back towards more progressive taxes. But it’s a long way from where it has been in the past.
Comment by Daryl — Friday October 17, 2008 @ 10:26 am
Actually “spread the wealth around” is saying take from the rich and give to the poor. Great if you lived in Sherwood Forest but not so much when you’re trying to pay your mortgage.
One thing you post has me scratching my head. Your friends all said Bush only gave a tax cut to the rich yet using your numbers above he gave a 10% cut to the highest rate yet a 33% cut to the lowest. I’m sure you’ll point out the rich got a lot more money back. Yes, because they pay a lot more money. I’m sure you understand math even though you have trouble with fairness. The top 10% of the taxpayers pay over 70% of the taxes. I ask again, is that fair? I guess in your and Obama’s eyes but not in mine. Oh wait, you and Obama both think the top should pay even more.
Then your latest comment about taxes swinging more towards flatter taxes. Again, using your numbers when we look at the Bush tax cut it cut the rate more for the poorer folks than it did for the richer. In other words, a more progressive tax.
Those darn facts are at it again. 😉
Comment by Don — Friday October 17, 2008 @ 10:39 am
No, that’s right. As I understand it W’s tax cuts actually made the code more progressive. So they helped move us on this “path to socialism” you decry. (Though this doesn’t include W’s large cuts in Capital Gains that actually had more beneficial effect on the wealthy than the tax rates show.)
So I guess it’s more accurate for me to say the pendulum is already swinging back to the left and Obama wants to give it a further nudge. But we are a long way from where we have been, in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s.
It sounds about right that the top 10% of taxpayers pay over 70% of the taxes. But on the other hand the top 20% makes over 50% of the total income in the country too, so it’s not as unbalanced as it seems.
Yes, I think it’s fair that those making more pay tax at a higher rate. The structure of the economy is tilted towards those making more, with CEO’s making 400 times the salary of their low end workers. This looks like a basic philosophical difference between our positions that blog comments are not likely to change.
Certainly someone who has invested years in an education should be able to profit from the increased salary that typically brings. Someone better at their job should make more. The tax rate shouldn’t be an attempt to completely level everyones net income. But I think some progressiveness is fair.
And the “income” disparity doesn’t take into account the fact that capital gains are taxed at a rate comparable to the lowest tax bracket. Many, or most, of the really affluent in the country make most of their money from capital gains, so their effective tax rate is a lot lower than it seems.
Comment by Daryl — Friday October 17, 2008 @ 11:15 am
Yes it’s quite clear we have a difference in philosophy. I’ve known that ever since you made the comment “you act like socialism is a bad thing”.
And yes, we will likely never agree on the meaning of fairness. I believe it’s fair to let people keep more of the money they earn. You believe it’s fair to take their money and give it to people who didn’t make as much.
That always boggles my mind. I’ve believed that the folks in Hollywood typically believe that because they feel so guilty about making money for doing basically nothing productive. To assuage their guilt they want to help the poorer people but it always annoys me that they want to use my money to do it instead of just their money.
Maybe retiring at 49 affects someone the same way. But no, you’ve been a lib for as long as I can remember.
Comment by Don — Friday October 17, 2008 @ 11:29 am
LOL! This reminds me of believers sometimes analyzing why I don’t believe in God. They suggest that something bad happened in my childhood so I resent God for letting it happen and decided not to believe out of spite. Or because I want to be selfish and not follow God’s rules, I decide not to believe so I can run wild.
The “truth” of their position is so obvious to them that they can’t accept that someone who believes differently actually has logical reasons for their position.
In the same way, you propose that support for progressive taxation and social programs must be the result of guilt.
I can understand your political position (I’ve read Ayn Rand too) and agree that there are good arguments in support of it. But it’s possible to hold contrary positions without being prompted by guilt, greed or other irrational emotions.
Comment by Daryl — Saturday October 18, 2008 @ 7:21 pm
It’s either guilt or a massive ego. You can take your pick. Something makes liberals think they either know best how to use the money I make or they feel guilty.
The main difference between us is I want the government to pretty much leave me alone. You want it to pretty much take money from everyone who you think makes too much and give it to people you think are too poor.
Comment by Don — Saturday October 18, 2008 @ 10:42 pm